Kenneth Baker
It鈥檚 always seemed to me that most of our contact with paintings聽鈥� for those who are not painters 鈥� is in memory. I spend much more time remembering pictures than looking at them, except for a couple I own. There鈥檚 a quality in your work of meeting the viewer half way in this regard: the memory themes are not merely private, but have to do with a condition of reception that鈥檚 not widely acknowledged in contemporary painting. Does that sound right to聽you?

Howard Hodgkin
Yes. I think it鈥檚 absolutely true of some artists I admire above almost everyone else, because memories are what we share. Degas, for example, is someone that, in an odd way, I feel very close to. I don鈥檛 say that in any hubristic sense. The things he observed became almost instantly things that had happened. And so he would go on re-using them, tracing and transferring images or parts of images from one work to聽another.

Kenneth Baker
What that makes me think of is something very different from and ostensibly unconnected to Degas, which is Abstract Expressionism. It was supposed to be about the painting process as an event, making the painting something that happens. And yet one does not think of the Abstract Expressionists in relation to Degas. They鈥檙e much closer to you than to him in terms of the open stroke, brushwork or marking that advertises itself for what it聽is.

Howard Hodgkin
But he used that a lot as well, particularly in the monotypes, which are so marvellous. I think there is a connection between those apparently disparate situations, because the Degas pictures are always things. They became聽objects.

Kenneth Baker
That may be true after a certain point in his career, but think of something such as Degas鈥檚 The Bellelli Family鈥�

Howard Hodgkin
Ah, a wonderful picture! That鈥檚 completely a thing. He鈥檚 turned something that was observed into a pictorial object 鈥� like a piece of聽architecture.

Kenneth Baker
And how is that different from someone such as Chardin, some of whose pictures appear to be as carefully, though not as coldly observed as The Bellelli Family?

Howard Hodgkin
Well, I don鈥檛 think of The Bellelli Family as being coldly observed at all. I think it鈥檚 a total work of art that he was extremely passionate about. I can鈥檛 see any fundamental difference between that and The Owner鈥檚 Birthday, his monotype of some of the girls patting the brothel-keeper on the head. His formal passion has been turned into a very solid聽thing.

Kenneth Baker
And you see yourself enacting a similar process in your聽work?

Howard Hodgkin
Yes, I聽do.

Kenneth Baker
Are these finished聽pieces?

Howard Hodgkin
Absolutely. Not even you would I allow to see an unfinished聽painting.

Kenneth Baker
Well, that鈥檚 not quite true. Last time I was here you allowed me to see two unfinished聽paintings.

Howard Hodgkin
I did? I never normally let anyone see unfinished聽pictures.

Kenneth Baker
I know. I took it as a real mark of trust. They were not titled. Both were on this wall at the time. One you weren鈥檛 sure about 鈥� it might have been ready. The other definitely wasn鈥檛. I asked you how you knew it was unfinished, because it wasn鈥檛 obvious to me. And you said something most interesting in reply: 鈥楤ecause the subject isn鈥檛 there聽yet.鈥�

Howard Hodgkin
Yes, I remember now, and you said you had no idea my paintings were so聽subject-led.

Kenneth Baker
I still don鈥檛 understand the status of the subject in your work. At times it seems that a title will bring a subject forward, so it becomes a shareable thing to contemplate. In other cases, before one knows the title, your pictures can seem not exactly abstract, but disinterested in subject. Whereas your response to my question was a passionate commitment to聽subject.

Howard Hodgkin
Absolutely. The subject is what the painting is about. I think that鈥檚 the best I can聽do.

Kenneth Baker
So a painting such as First Light on account of its title suggests an image. If you had called it Untitled, Number 18, 2005, I might certainly have seen emanations of light in it, but I wouldn鈥檛 have taken it to have a聽subject.

Howard Hodgkin
No, well, some are more literal than聽others.

Kenneth Baker
So when they鈥檙e less literal, they鈥檙e not more聽abstract?

Howard Hodgkin
No. Absolutely聽not.

Kenneth Baker
That鈥檚 where I鈥檓 confused, because I don鈥檛 see how you can have a shareable subject without some literalness. In this case, the literalness comes mostly in the title. But it seems as if there鈥檚 a way of seeing these things that you insist upon for yourself that you can鈥檛 insist upon for the聽viewer.

Howard Hodgkin
I can鈥檛 control the viewer. But I tell them what the picture鈥檚 about, always. I鈥檝e never painted an abstract picture in my life. I聽can鈥檛.

Kenneth Baker
But there鈥檚 so much verve and assertion in the brushwork here that to my eye it overcomes the subject. You鈥檙e looking at paint first and last, really, even though it鈥檚 paint inhabiting a situation you鈥檝e constructed. I think it opens itself to an abstract聽reading.

Howard Hodgkin
Well, I was brought up in a period when art historians talked about the formal structure of paintings such as Rogier van der Weyden鈥檚 Deposition c.1435鈥�40, where the subject was often taken for granted and could be read as聽abstract.

Kenneth Baker
But we鈥檙e no longer in that situation. The subject cannot be taken for聽granted.

Howard Hodgkin
No, we鈥檙e not, nor any longer can painting be taken for granted. But all paintings that have lasted have had to be able to be looked at as physical objects as well as what they鈥檙e about. Anybody who鈥檚 seriously interested in painting views pictures as things as well as聽images.

Kenneth Baker
Then it seems that a certain kind of transaction between these points of view 鈥� seeing it as a thing and as an image or construction 鈥� is breaking聽down.

Howard Hodgkin
Breaking down with the audience? I see why you say that, but it鈥檚 not been my entire experience. I was amazed when I had my show at the Metropolitan Museum. Retrospectives are almost the only time the artist meets his public, or when there鈥檚 any dialogue. I had the most extraordinary encounters in New York. I thought 鈥榥obody鈥檚 going to understand what my pictures are about at all鈥�. But they did to the most astonishing聽extent.

Kenneth Baker
When one sees in your paintings what looks like a painted frame, or a reversed panel, does that imply a revision of something that already exists or聽existed?

Howard Hodgkin
For me, it鈥檚 got to be a new beginning. I鈥檝e never been able to paint in series either,聽unfortunately.

Kenneth Baker
Have you聽tried?

Howard Hodgkin
No. Before anything else can happen, I鈥檝e got to establish the physical reality of the聽picture.

Kenneth Baker
And it鈥檚 when that physical reality is established that the subject can begin to show itself聽?

Howard Hodgkin
Yes. Absolutely聽right.

Kenneth Baker
I would think that from the naive non-painter鈥檚 point of view, the trick would be to surmount the physical reality of the panel with paint 鈥� to make it disappear as mere matter 鈥� rather than achieve a peculiar physicality with the聽paint.

Howard Hodgkin
The physicality is the paint and the panel, together. That鈥檚 what has always fascinated me about Arshile Gorky鈥檚 work. He is the most interesting of the Abstract Expressionists, if he can even be called聽that.

Kenneth Baker
Who knows? He wasn鈥檛 abstract, for one thing. Anyone who looks at the paintings will have to acknowledge that they鈥檙e rotten with suggestiveness, deliciously so. It鈥檚 interesting to me that you keep Gorky as a reference point. Would you say that鈥檚聽true?

Howard Hodgkin
Not as a reference point now, but he鈥檚 someone I never forget聽about.

Kenneth Baker
Are you willing to mention artists you do keep as reference聽points?

Howard Hodgkin
They all sound too grand, and they鈥檙e too long聽dead.

Kenneth Baker
Guston had no qualms about linking himself with Piero della聽Francesca.

Howard Hodgkin
No? Well, Stuart Davis, at his best,聽then.

Kenneth Baker
Really?

Howard Hodgkin
When you consider that he had no support system for what he did. He invented his own lingua franca.

Kenneth Baker
I think many American critics 鈥� and this may be very chauvinistic 鈥� have come to think of Abstract Expressionism as the lingua franca of the second half of the twentieth century, because it appears to manifest its influence in so many places. Do you not have Abstract Expressionism in聽mind?

Howard Hodgkin
No. But I鈥檓 sure I was very much affected by it. I helped David Sylvester to hang the de Kooning exhibition at Tate in 1995, which was a very educational process, as you can imagine, because you were so near the paintings. One had to make constant, instantly defensible value judgments.鈥橬o, David, you can鈥檛 hang that there because.鈥� And he would come back with something that was more like a tidal wave than a sentence. It was wonderful to be so near聽them.

Kenneth Baker
Let鈥檚 talk about colour. Is there a satisfactory language to describe聽colour?

Howard Hodgkin
It鈥檚 almost聽impossible.

Kenneth Baker
Where chances are most obviously taken 鈥� sometimes with debatable success and sometimes with triumphant clarity and resolution 鈥� they seem to produce the most fraught-feeling aspects of your pictures. Do you decide on a palette before you make a聽painting?

Howard Hodgkin
听狈别惫别谤.

Kenneth Baker
Is there ever a root colour in a picture, on which everything else must聽hang?

Howard Hodgkin
No. It is a juggling act every time. That鈥檚 why it鈥檚 always a聽struggle.

Kenneth Baker
Does colour provide the precision needed for a聽subject?

Howard Hodgkin
It can do. But people pretend that I never draw, because they can鈥檛 see that my pictures are made of drawing, shape and聽composition.

Kenneth Baker
I鈥檓 surprised, because to me the linearity that develops from moving paint around is so pronounced, as are the聽occlusions.

Howard Hodgkin
Yes, thank you! That seems to be something I can鈥檛 say to聽people.

Kenneth Baker
In An Italian Landscape there is a wonderful sap green running through the picture. The title suggests that it has two meanings. It can mean a painting, or an actual聽view.

Howard Hodgkin
It means an actual聽view.

Kenneth Baker
So you had a view in mind, a memory that you worked聽from?

Howard Hodgkin
I had聽several.

Kenneth Baker
Your paintings have weather in them, which is not true of many contemporary works. They have mood, but not聽weather.

Howard Hodgkin
Maybe that鈥檚 because I鈥檓 an English artist. I hate to say that, because I don鈥檛 feel like an English artist at all, but I鈥檓 afraid it鈥檚聽inescapable.

Kenneth Baker
Well, there鈥檚 no weather in Michael Craig-Martin.

Howard Hodgkin
But I don鈥檛 think of Michael Craig-Martin as an English artist. Do聽you?

Kenneth Baker
I鈥檓 not sure I know what you mean by an English聽artist.

Howard Hodgkin
Well, I think of Stuart Davis and de Kooning as totally American artists, for聽example.

Kenneth Baker
Well, yes, de Kooning certainly became American and changed what American painting meant, or 鈥楢merican-ness in painting鈥�, to use a Greenbergism. Do you think you鈥檝e done the same thing for Englishness in painting, or is there no such聽thing?

Howard Hodgkin
I hope there鈥檚 no such聽thing.

Kenneth Baker
The issue of weather brings me back to the question of these paintings as reflections of yourself. I鈥檓 sure some people are tempted to read your evocations of weather as evocations of psychological聽weather.

Howard Hodgkin
Yes, they might. I can鈥檛 stop聽them.

Kenneth Baker
Is there a correspondence, then? Have there been paintings that have grown out of specific moods that you鈥檝e wished to聽sustain?

Howard Hodgkin
Oh, mostly, yes. Far more than anything聽else.

Kenneth Baker
Do you think the durability of a painting as an achieved physical object, if it鈥檚 well-tuned, will secure the persistence of the聽mood?

Howard Hodgkin
Yes, I do. And I鈥檓 not just speaking of my work. I think if a painting succeeds, it鈥檚 there and it won鈥檛 evaporate. You can use the most evanescent mood to make something聽solid.

Kenneth Baker
This suggests to me that what you鈥檙e saying is that the painting process is part of defining the moods that you have. Can moods be among the subjects in your聽sphere?

Howard Hodgkin
驰别蝉,听补产蝉辞濒耻迟别濒测.

Kenneth Baker
And can you think of other things, besides weather, that qualify as聽subjects?

Howard Hodgkin
Well, weather鈥檚 never been a specific subject. There鈥檚 a big picture in the Tate collection called Rain, but it includes a lot of other聽things.

Kenneth Baker
So is a painting a receptacle in that聽sense?

Howard Hodgkin
Yes, if you聽like.

Kenneth Baker
That seems to invite dangerous projections on the viewer鈥檚聽part.

Howard Hodgkin
Yes it does, but viewers usually don鈥檛 make mistakes. I鈥檓 just astounded by聽that.

Kenneth Baker
Are there subjects that have defeated聽you?

Howard Hodgkin
I can鈥檛 remember one that I never finally conquered. I can remember ages ago that I felt I鈥檇 failed to communicate when I鈥檇 painted some unhappy emotional situation and someone looked at the picture and said: 鈥極h, how pretty; how charming.鈥� And I thought 鈥榰gh鈥�. But then, why not? Why shouldn鈥檛 they? The picture should be聽itself.

Kenneth Baker
So you do see your work as聽communicative?

Howard Hodgkin
Yes. And the pictures do聽communicate.

Kenneth Baker
I think that too remains a point of ambiguity, or it seems to fluctuate in degrees among the聽paintings.

Howard Hodgkin
Yes, of course it would among anybody鈥檚聽paintings.

Kenneth Baker
It fluctuates vividly among yours, I聽think.

Howard Hodgkin
I don鈥檛 mind being聽vivid.

Kenneth Baker
鈥n that some do seem to be very private and others quite聽public.

Howard Hodgkin
Yes, though to me they always seem ridiculously open. But I think that鈥檚 because of the nature of how an artist works, at least how I聽work.

Kenneth Baker
Do you have a favourite register in which to work, where you鈥檙e most聽comfortable?

Howard Hodgkin
No, not at all. But I鈥檓 always fascinated by the effect of scale and surface on the emotion that one is trying to communicate. Sometimes I make them聽bigger.

Kenneth Baker
By adding a聽margin?

Howard Hodgkin
Yes. I can鈥檛 remember ever having made one聽smaller.

Kenneth Baker
What about your sense of your audience? Are there other painters you try things out聽on?

Howard Hodgkin
No. No one. I used to. My only painter friend was Patrick Caulfield, who died recently. Now it has to be聽me.

Kenneth Baker
Do you paint in聽silence?

Howard Hodgkin
Always.

According to Hodgkin, View from Venice 1984鈥�5 is a view from the city into the Lagoon. A few swathes of turquoise, orange, black and white, some dashes of red-brown burnt sienna, and some tiny remnants of the initial bare wood surface represent the memory of what he saw and felt with this view before him. But the painting is sufficiently indistinct to act as a trigger for the viewer鈥檚 own recollections and, perhaps, emotions. For me, it conjures up memories of looking across the Lagoon at sunset to surrounding islands like the cemetery San Michele or Murano, when they glow a pinkish-orange and hover over the water like an apparition, or watching the sun setting spectacularly behind the ugly Tronchetto car park and the industrial area to the west of the聽city.

The central, illusory image is enclosed by a border made from three individual wooden frames, painted in autumnal ochre, earthy green and red, and covered by black spots. This dense frame could represent an interior space, one of those intensely patterned, ornate Venetian rooms, from whose window, perhaps, Hodgkin experienced the聽view.

It is often said that in the city鈥檚 shifting and dramatic light, its reflections, mists and sunsets, Turner found a perfect echo of his sensibilities, and the ultimate motifs from which to show off his talents. The same can be said of聽Hodgkin.

His practice is solitary. 鈥楢lone in my studio鈥�, he has said. 鈥業 long to share my feelings鈥�. And his depiction of Venice, the ghostly shadow of a once thriving republic, is inevitably a kind of elegy. Hodgkin once lamented that it was 鈥榠rritating.to be constantly told that my pictures are beautiful鈥�, because it might indicate that they lack meaning or content. However View from Venice for all its exuberant colour, energy and expressive vigour, contains a hint of sadness. Like Venice, it is indeed beautiful, but it is a beauty with a lingering聽melancholy.